M.P. PARAMESWARAN博士采访

INTERVIEW WITH Dr. M.P. PARAMESWARAN

采访M.P. PARAMESWARAN 博士

采访/文:SHOMA CHOUDHURY
翻译:诸众之貌团队
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I
ON PARISHAD (KSSP)
关于 Parishad (KSSP)
1.How to you describe the Parishad?
1,您如何描述 Parishad?
KSSP is generally referred to as a People’s Science Movement.
KSSP一般是指人民科学运动(PSM)。
2.Is it a voluntary organization/an NGO/a cooperative society like the Sahitya Pravartaka Sahakarana Sangham?
2,它是一个志愿组织,还是非政府组织(NGO)?还是像 Sahitya Pravartaka Sahakarana Sangham 一样的合作社?
By and large it is a voluntary organization. It is not a cooperative society. In a generic sense it is an NGO- a Non-Governmental Organization, but different from what people understanding by an NGO. In early eighties this question was raised within the organization: What are we? The question was answered in a number of negatives- what the KSSP is not.
What KSSP is not... • KSSP is not a political party. But many of the activities of the KSSP may be welcomed by all political parties to a greater or lesser extent. However, our aim is not “to become acceptable to political parties”. • KSSP is not a mere cultural organization. Yes, it is working in the field of health care eduction low cost housing income generating activities etc. But they do not constitute the sole objective of the Parishad. • KSSP is not a cultural organization. It organizes Kalajatha, competitions, exhibitions etc. But its objective is not mere culture. • KSSP is not a mere educational organization. It helps children, teachers and citizens to learn, conducts, talent tests and other competition, organizes science clubs etc. Yes, it is involved in both formal and informal education. But its objectives are not limited to education. • KSSP is not a mere research organization. It carried out studies and conducts research on many problems, such as “Problems of Kuttanad”, “Appropriate Technology”, “Wealth of Kerala”, “Environment Protection” etc. But its objective is not limited to R & D. • KSSP is not merely a science popularization organization. • It is not, merely, a rural development organization.
• It is not merely a publication firm.
• It is not just a rationalist outfit...
KSSP is all these things together and more. Its guiding slogan is “Science for Social Revolution”.
Those who do not reply to letters, who do not keep proper accounts, who do not carry out committed responsibilities, who try to wriggle out responsibilities, who do not relate own work with that of others, who instead of creative criticism indulge in complaints and speaking ill of others, who do not have faith in human beings- such persons cannot become good Parishad activist.
大体上来说,它是一个志愿组织,不是合作社。广义而言,它是个非政府组织(NGO),但是有别于人们一般理解的NGO。八十年代早期,组织内部曾经提出过这个问题:我们是什么组织?当时这个问题,得到了许多否定的回答—— KSSP不是什么组织。
KSSP不是 ...... • KSSP不是政党。KSSP的许多活动可能或多或少受到政党们的欢迎,但“迎合政党”并不是我们的目标。 • KSSP不仅仅是一个文化组织。的确,它的活动领域包括卫生保健、教育、廉房、增收项目等。但这还不是Parishad 的全部。 • KSSP不是一个文化组织,虽然它组织Kalajatha(演出)、比赛、展览等等,但是它的目标不仅是文化。 • KSSP也不仅仅是一个教育组织。它帮助儿童、教师和市民们学习、行动,组织人才选拔以及其他竞赛,还组织科学俱乐部,等等。是的,它展开的活动涉及正式及非正式教育,但是它的目的不局限于教育。 • KSSP不仅仅是一个研究组织。它针对很多问题进行研究,比如“库塔那德(Kuttanad)问题”、“适用技术”、“喀拉拉邦财富(Wealth of Kerala)”、“环境保护”,等等。但是它的目的不局限于研究与开发。 • KSSP 不仅仅是一个科普组织。 • 不仅仅是农村发展组织。 • 不仅仅是出版公司。 • 也不仅仅是一件理性的外衣。 KSSP 是这些身份的集合,是1+1>2。其指导口号为“社会革命之科学”。那些不回复信件的人,对人不理不睬的人,不履行承诺的人,试图逃避责任的人,不与人合作的人,沉浸在抱怨与诽谤他人中而停止创造性批判的人,以及没有信仰的人——这样的人不能成为优秀的Parishad活动家。
3.What is the difference between an organization and a movement? Do you think one impedes the other or facilitates the other? What are the tensions between?
3,一个组织和一个运动之间有什么区别?您认为这两者相互阻扰,还是相互促进?二者之间有什么冲突?
A movement, as the very term suggests is dynamic. It moves- it changes. Its ideas grow and change, its activities change, its scope changes, it grows- both geographically and numerically. While keeping certain cardinal features so that it is recognizable, considerable changes take place. An organization is what the body is to life. It facilitates and maintains the movement.
At some stage or other there would be tension between a movement and its own organizational structure, akin to that between productive forces (movement) and production relations (organization). This has invariably happened to political parties, class movements,cultural movements etc. Those movements which fail to transform organizational structures, as it develops, petrify or putrify.
顾名思义,运动是动态的。它不断变化,不断地发生着改变。它的思想在成长和变化,它的行动在改变,它的范畴在改变,它本身——在地理上和数量上都在改变。它同时也保持这一定的基本特性,这样即使发生着客观的变化,也还是能够辨认出来的。而组织呢,它是生命赖以存在的身体。它促进、包含着运动。某些阶段,运动和运动自身的组织之间会有冲突,类似于生产力(运动)和生产关系(组织)之间的冲突。这在政党、阶级运动、文化运动中都存在。这些运动在发展过程中,未能转变组织结构,而是逐渐呆滞,或者霉变。
4.Who does the Parishad take inspiration from (Similar attempts in other parts of the world or India) Can you think similar initiatives in China, Russia or the US?
4,Parishad的灵感源自哪里(世界上或者印度还有哪些类似的事物)?您能想到一些中国、俄罗斯或者美国的类似组织吗?
Parishad cannot claim to have taken inspiration from any organization in India or abroad. However, one can say that in the sixties the books and ideas of J.D. Bernal had profound influence on the leading activists of the KSSP. We are not aware of any movement outside India even distantly similar to the KSSP. However, KSSP has found a number or organizations with which it can resonate: like the now defunct ‘Science for the People’ group in USA, the very active ARENA group in Hongkong, the PP21 group in Tokyo etc.
不能说Parishad从印度或者世界上别的任何组织那儿获得灵感。不过,我们可以说的是,60年代J.D. 贝纳尔(J.D. Bernal )的书和理念对KSSP的领导人物们有着深刻的影响。除此之外,我们不清楚除了印度世界上还有哪些类似的运动,哪怕是略微相似的都没有。不过,KSSP成立了很多的组织,这些组织已经产生了共鸣,像美国的现在已经不存在了的“科学为人民”,香港那个很活跃的组织“ARENA”,还有东京的PP21组织,等等。
5.How are issues in the Parishad taken up? How do they receive prominence at any given point of time? Why did education become important in the 70s and Health in the 80s or People’s Planning in the 90s? Is it a question of change in the leadership, which brings about a change in the emphasis and orientation? Or is it debates outside in civil society or even in the international arena that brings about a change in the Parishad’s orientation?
5,Parishad内部是怎么运作的?事件会在特定时间点上提上日程吗?为什么教育在70年代成为焦点,而80年代则是健康,90年代则是人民计划(People's Planning)? 是因为领导层的更替带来了重点和方向的变化?是因为外部的公民社会的辩论,抑或是国际社会环境导致了Parishad的转向?
Debates outside (national, regional or even international), interest and persistence of leaders, response from the various constituencies to the first level of intervention- all are causes for issues being taken up by the KSSP. Since, from the very beginning teachers, both in schools and colleges, formed the backbone of the KSSP, education has been always a subject of interest to it. Occasional intensification of activities come about as responses to changes in government policies or certain incidents. Many discussions burst out when the external environment become favourable. KSSP has been, in a way, preparing for the People’s Plan Campaign since 1976- the publication of Wealth of Kerala.
外部的辩论(全国性的,地区性的,甚至国际性的)、领导人的兴趣和坚持、不同选区对顶层干预的不同反应——这些都是KSSP要考虑的因素。因为从一开始,中小学和高校教师们形成了KSSP的骨干,因此教育始终是KSSP关注的一个主题。作为对某些政策或者事件的回应,会不时地增强对某些主题的关注和行动。当外部条件变得有利时,也会产生许多的讨论。在某种程度上,KSSP从1976年,《喀拉拉邦的财富》出版时,就已经开始准备人民计划行动了。
6.What was the emphasis in PTB’s time and in his work? What was characteristic about his style of functioning?
6,PTB 的任内时间和他的工作当中,重点在什么地方?他的领导风格和特点是什么?
Before BTB, KSSP was almost a professional organization of “Science Writers in Malayalam”. It was PTB who transformed into a “science movement for people”. His characteristic style of functioning was quick decision, quick action and large volumes- more emphasis on breath than on depth.
PTB以前,KSSP基本上是一个专家组织,“马拉雅拉姆语科学作家”。是PTB把KSSP转变为“人民科学行动”。他的风格特点是迅速决断,迅速行动,大量铺开——他更强调广泛性,而不是深刻性。
7.What is the difference between your style of functioning and his style? (Work, goals, orientation, vision of society) Is it a difference in ideologies and vision?
7,您的领导风格和他的有何不同?(工作、目标、定位、社会愿景)在理念和视野方面有区别吗?
My Style? It is difficult for me to say. Obviously there was a difference in visions. Though we both shared Marxist ideology, my three years experience in USSR had prompted me to raise questions and ultimately come to the conclusion that it is necessary to develop a new ideology, which so to speak, synthesises Marxian thoughts and Gandhian thoughts, both changed appropriately to suit conditions and knowledge available in the 21st century.
我的风格?这个我不好说。很明显在视野上是有差别的。尽管我们都信奉马克思主义,但在USSR的三年时间让我善于提出问题并最终得出结论:有必要发展一套新的理念,也就是我们说的,结合马克思主义思想和甘地主义思想,对其进行适当改造,以适应21世纪不同的条件和知识。
8.In the People’s Science Movement, who are the people that you seek to represent? (Name some categories or groups) Why do they need to be represented? Is it because they are incapable of representing themselves?
8,您试图代表的是人民科学运动(PSM)里的哪些人?(可以是类别或群体)为什么他们需要被代表?是否因为他们自己不能代表自己?
PSM cannot claim to “represent”any group of people- but it recognised two broad groups: a majority which is getting continuously impoverished or face the threat of impoverishment and a minority which gets continuously enriched at the expense of the minority. The PSM is consciously partisan towards the majority and are against the minority when their interests clash with those of the majority. Its members come, mostly, from the so-called middle class and intellectuals.
PSM并不提倡“代表”任何群体或者任何人——但它承认两大群体:多数派,它们长期贫穷,或面临着贫穷的威胁;以及少数派,他们长期富裕,他们的富裕以多数派的贫穷为代价。当多数派和少数派的利益相冲突,PSM是站在多数派这边,反对少数派的。它的成员大多数来自所谓的中产阶级和知识分子。
9.What according to you have been the major turning points in the development of Parishad (Shifts in the orientation of Parishad)?
9,Parishad的发展历程中,您认为有哪些主要的转折点 (Parishad的定位发生变化)?
There are several milestones 1967 : when a constitution was adopted and district/ local units were formed; 1972- 73 formation school science clubs- mass campaign on Nature, Science and Society- from an exclusive group to an expansive group. !974-76 : energy debate and development of Kerala, formation of Rural Science Fora; 1978-80 : Kalajatha, 1988-89 : Literacy Campaign- sudden change in the character; 1991-96 Resource Mapping- planning campaign.
有这么几个里程碑。1967年:通过了纲领,组建了地区 / 地方单位;1972-1973年:成立校园科学俱乐部--自然、科技和社会人民行动 ——从小众团体到大众团体的转变。1974-76: 能源辩论和喀拉拉邦发展,“乡村科学论坛”的成立;1978-80: Kalajatha;1988-89:扫盲运动--特征的突然转变;1991-96:资源图谱--规划活动。
10.In these years of its existence what have been the major changes within the organization?
10,组织存在的这么多年中,有哪些主要的变化?
The major change as far as I could see: emphasis shifting from quality to numbers, from scientific critique to political critique.
就我所知,主要的变化是:从强调质量转变为强调数量,从科学批判转向政治批判。
II
ON SCIENCE
关于科学
1.What is the difference between people’s knowledge and people’s science? Is there a difference? Eg. Agriculture, Medical notions among the people, Architecture (Tachhu Sastra) Indigenous skills and techniques? Mathematics?
1,“民间知识”和“民间科学” 有什么不同?存在这样的不同点吗?例如:民间的农业医疗观念,建筑(Tachhu Sastra)的主要技术?或者数学?
In KSSP we use knowledge, science and technology totally, synonymously. Actually there is difference, but our emphasis is not on that: We don’t use people’s as adjective to science, but to “science movement”. Basically science, scientific method is same for all and every where. People’s knowledge,indigenous skill, techniques, all are as it is, discrete. They have not been developed into being capable of predicting new things. It is, mostly a product and not a tool.
在 KSSP,我们对知识、科技和技术是完全平等看待的。事实上,确实有一点区别。但是,我们的重点不在于此:我们不把“民间”作为“科学”的形容词,而把它作为“科学运动”的形容词。基本上,科学、科学方法对所有人都是一样的。民间知识、地方技术、技法,这些本身就是离散的,互不相同的。它们还没有发展到能够预知新事物的程度。大体上说,它们仍然是一个产品,而不是工具。
2.Is Ayurveda a Science? What are the differences between the ideas of health that the Parishad seeks to disseminate and the notions of health in Ayurveda?
2,阿育吠陀(Ayurveda,印度传统草医学,又名韦达养生学——译者注)是科学吗?Parishad所试图传播的医疗理念和阿育吠陀的理念有何不同?
Ayurveda, according to me, was science, but not today. The language of Ayurveda is quite different from that of modern science and is not really understood by anybody. It is used rather mechanically. As far as ‘notion of health’ is concerned, there is not much divergence. But, there is much difference in the notions about ‘disease’. What KSSP wants is to achieve a convergence in the notion of disease too.
在我看来,阿育吠陀是一种科学,但不是今天的科学。阿育吠陀的语言和现代科学相去甚远,因而不被人们所理解。它更多的是一种鹦鹉学舌的(机械式的)沿用。就 “医疗理念”而言,二者区别不大,但对“疾病”的理解就大相径庭了。KSSP 想要实现的就是融合这些疾病理念。
3.What is the difference between sastra and vigyan? Do you find any difference in the usage or what it connotes?
3,sastra (科学或艺术方面之权威著作)和 vigyan(书籍)有什么区别?您有没有发现二者在使用上,或其涵义上的区别?
In Malayalam we use sastra and Vigyan absolutely synonymously. In fact we use sastra in place of Vigyan in Hindi (Vijnan in saskrit too mean the same- but sastra is different in Sanskrit).
马拉雅拉姆语里面,sastra和Vigyan当然是意思相近的。事实上,sastra的用法相当于印度语中的Vigyan(Vijnan和saskrit的涵义也一样——不过sastra在梵文里意思不同)。
4.Why is science delinked from technology in your argument? If knowledge is linked to practice then isn’t the scientific knowledge the basis of technology? Then why this separation here? Doesn’t knowledge guide the practice even in the case of science?
4,为什么您的论述中要将技术和科学脱轨?如果知识是与实践挂钩的,那科学知识不应该是技术的基础吗?既然如此,为什么会进行这样的分离呢?哪怕在科学领域,知识不也指导实践吗?
Science is not de-linked. When KSSP uses the word science it includes technology too. This has led to some confusion because quite often KSSP’s critiques are applicable only to technology and not to science. When it speaks of “abuse of science” it really means abuse of technology. In a deeper analysis, when pursuit of science is split into its three components: posing the question, seeking the answer and using the result, the criticisms coincide. The rich pose questions, they use the results too.
科学并没有脱钩。KSSP在使用“科学(science)”这个词的时候,是包括了技术(technology)在内的。这已经产生过一些混淆了,因为KSSP的很多评论,人们会认为只适用于技术,而不是科学。当我们说“科学的滥用”时,它当然是包括“技术的滥用的”。更加深入地说,当我们把对科学的追求被一分为三—— 提出问题,寻找答案,利用成果——会发现它们是一致的。人们既提出科学问题,也同样利用成果(技术)。
5.Where there any debates within the Communist Party of Kerala on Science? On Science Policy of India? When and what was their position? How is the Parishad’s position different?
5,在喀拉拉邦的共产党内有关科学的争论吗?或者关于印度的科学政策?什么时候产生的,他们各自的立场如何? Parishad 的立场有什么不同?
No serious open debate except in the case of ecology. Many in the CPI(M) and CPI argued that ecology is an imperialist science, designed to block the development of developing countries.
除了关于生态学的争论以外,没有什么大的公开争论。CPI(M)和CPI的许多人争论说,生态学是帝国主义科学,是用来阻挡发展中国家发展的。
III
ON THE CAMPAIGNS:NATURE,SCIENTY,(1973 ),(1976),KERALATHINDE SAMPATHY(1977-78) THE WORLD WE LIVE IN(1985)
关于运动:《自然、科学与社会》(1973)(1976) Keralathinde Sampathy(1977-78)《我们生存的世界》(1985)
1.Who wrote it? When? Is the time of these classes significant?
1,作者是谁?什么时候写的?这些课堂的时间点是否很重要?
The first set of notes on Nature, Science and Society were written by me and P. Govinda Pillai. That was in 1972. The intention was to spread an objective and scientific view of the universe around us and also about human history. There was no temporal significance except in the set of classes taken in January 1976 the period of emergency when this provided an occasion for a number of progressive thinkers.
《自然、科学与社会》课堂的第一批笔记,是我和 P. Govinda Pillai 写的。那是1972年。当时是为了传播一种客观科学的宇宙观和人类历史,没有什么特别的时代意义。1976年1月的一系列课程除外,那时候正是紧张时期,这个时期产生了大量的进步思想者。
2.What does it say?(Essence)
2,它主要讲什么?(精华)
The contents of “Nature, Science and Society” as well as of “The World We Live In” are almost identical. They are, in fact, quite voluminous, requiring more than a year to teach. What was attempted was only to give a glimpse. They dealt with:
• The non-living universe from subatomic particles to the infinite universe. Emphasis was given to unceasing motion or change. • The inseparability of the notion of both space and time from matter in motion, thus leading to the absurdity or internal contradiction of the question. “When the universe was created”. It intellectually confuses the listeners: the universe could not be created. It was always there, it could only change. Then, what about “The creator”, the “God” – we leave it to themselves to seek the answer. • Origin of life, evolution, descent (ascent) of man the nature of human consciousness and its inseparability from human body or brain, human physiology. • History of human societies, from primitive tribes to modern nation, changing relationships between humans and nature on the one side and amongst humans on the other side. • The current situation: more and more people chasing dwindling resources, limits to growth, possibilities of growthless development – instead of growth without development and ends with the question: What we want to create : a heaven or a hell? The classes on “Wealth of Kerala” were addressed to more concrete issues and were followed by classes on “Agriculture in Kerala”, “Consumer Protection”, “Energy and Development”, “Forest protection”, etc. All these were attempts to understand, collectively, the already visible stagnation/distortion in the Kerala economy.
《自然、科学和社会》的内容和《我们生活的世界》几乎是相同的。它们的涵盖很广,需要1年多才能完成教学。然而它的意图却只在于进行一些简介。简介的内容包括: •非生物的宇宙,从亚原子粒子到无限宇宙。重点是不断运动和变化。
•空间和时间概念的不可分离性,从物质的运动开始,引申出关于这个问题的荒谬性或者内部矛盾。“宇宙何时创造出来”这个问题,其实混淆了概念:宇宙是不能被创造出来的。宇宙一直在那儿,它有的只是变化。然后说道“造物者”,“神”—— 我们将这个问题留给听众自己去寻求答案。
•生命的起源,演进,人类物种的下降(上升),人类意识的特性,以及它与人类身体或大脑的不可分离性,人体生理学。
•人类社会的历史,从原始部落时代到现代国家,人与自然关系的演变,人与人关系的演变。
•现状:越来越多的人追求着日渐减少的资源,增长的局限,无增长发展的可能——发展而无增长,而不是增长而无发展。最后是终极问题:我们想要创造什么,一个天堂还是一个地狱?关于“喀拉拉邦的财富”的课程,目的是解决更为实在的问题。后面还有“喀拉拉邦的农业”、“消费者保护”、“能源与发展”、“森林保护”等课程。所有这些课程,都是为了让大家共同理解目前喀拉拉邦经济中已经可见的停滞和畸变。
3.Why is it important to know the development and interrelation between the three?
3,为什么很有必要了解这三者之间的发展和关联?
The first set of classes try to convince that only we can save ourselves. The second series try to explore how we can save ourselves.
第一组类别(classes)试图证明的是,只有我们自己才能拯救我们。第二组则试图探讨我们如何才能拯救自己。
4.How was it conveyed to the people in Kerala? (made contextually relevant)
4,它是如何在喀拉拉邦人民间传达的?(请举出相关例子)
Basically they were conveyed in oral (lectures) and written (books) form: Context always existed. It was easy to contextualise.
基本上他们通过口头(讲座)和书面(书籍)形式传达:背景是始终存在的。很容易产生背景联系。
5.Keralathinde Sampathu ..... Is it a Malayalam version of the Kerala Model of Development? (Since both were written at the same time!) Is it the result of the study undertaken by the editors?
5,这是不是马来西亚语版本的喀拉拉邦发展模式?(因为都写于同一时间!)这是不是编辑所进行的研究的结果?
“Keralathinte Sampathu” has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the so-called “Kerala Model”. That term has not yet become popular at that time. It was the product of inter-action amongst KSSP activists and friends from State Planning Board and Centre for Development Studies.Only published information is used. However, we had incorporated into it a different philosophy of development.
“Keralathinte Sampathu”与所谓的“喀拉拉邦模式”绝对无关。当时,这个词还没有流行起来呢。这是KSSP活动家和来自国家计划委员会和发展研究中心的朋友们之间的互动成果。仅使用了公开信息。但是,我们也在其中融入了另一种发展哲学。
6.What is the underlying notion of history in “The World We Live In”? How is it linked to Kerala’s history?
6,《我们的世界》中的历史,背后是什么样的基本概念?它与喀拉拉邦的历史是怎样联结的?
“The World We Live In” was an attempt to understand the human social evolution in relation to mass increasing understanding of, and ability to transform, nature i.e. with growth of science and technology. It was, also, an attempt to understand the saying “Humans (men) make their own History” Gordon Childes famous book “Man Makes Himself” has been a great inspiration. The Club of Rome report “Limits to Growth” too had a profound influence on us. There was no attempt to relate Kerala History to any of these.
《我们的世界》是一种尝试,尝试去理解人类社会演进当中与大众不断加深的对自然的理解能力和改造能力有关的部分,亦即,去理解与科学技术的发展相关的人类社会演进。同时,这也是一种去理解(马克思)“人类创造自己的历史”这句话的尝试。戈登·柴尔德的名作《人类创造自身》很给人启发。罗马俱乐部的报告《增长的极限》也对我们产生过深远影响。但没有人试图去将“喀拉拉邦的历史”与这些著作联系起来。
7.There have been attempts to popularise science even before independence in the attempts of Henry Derozio etc. What is the difference in the KSSP’s attempts to popularise science today?
7,在独立以前,也已经有过推广科学的尝试,比如Henry Derozio等。KSSP今天所尝试推广的东西有什么不同?
Frankly, I am not aware of Henry Derozio- even up to this day. There were many writers who wrote popular science. But theirs were not organised efforts with a vision of a changed society. In the first few years, from 1962 to 1967 KSSP too was interested only in broadcasting science, in informing people. Soon, KSSP began to view its own efforts as something not only to understand but also to transform – both nature and humans.
坦白说,我甚至今天都不知道Henry Derozio这个人。我们有很多位作家写过科普书籍,但那不是有组织的,不是与时俱进的。早先那几年,从1962至1967年,KSSP 也只对普及科学,启迪民众感兴趣。很快,KSSP开始重新定位自己——不仅是理解自然和人类,更要转变它们。
8.Popularisation implies a top down process of one-way flow? Is there some way in which their ‘science/ knowledge is incorporated in any of Parishad’s programmes? Why do you not recognise people’s knowledge as people’s science?
8,普及是不是意味着一种自上而下的、单向流动的过程?有没有别的什么方式,让这些“科学/知识”融入到某些Parishad的项目中去?您为何不认为民间知识是民间科学?
Frankly, it has been even till now a process of “radiation” or broadcast. (I won’t like to call it a top down process) albeit from a multiplicity of points. Bits of knowledge, available with people have been absorbed into KSSP’s knowledge store, but not incorporated into its scientific thinking. There was something holistic in people’s lives: but not anymore. What ever remain of that holistic outlook and practice amongst tribals and probably fisherfolk too has been had already become distorted by the “modern market”. We, frankly, don’t know how to retrieve the ancient knowledge and integrate it to “modern science”. We don’t think that it is feasible to build up a parallel science system built upon ancient axioms or categories.
坦白说,这到目前为止仍然是一个“辐射”,或者广播的过程。(我不会说这是个自上而下的过程),虽然客观地说,KSSP的知识库当中已经吸收了不少民间知识,但这些知识并未被纳入到KSSP的科学思想当中去。过去民间曾经有一些很普遍的东西,现在已经不复存在了。过去那些普遍的观念,部落和渔民们的惯例,基本上都已被“现代市场”给扭曲了。坦白地说,我们并不知道怎么去挽回那些古老的知识,并融入到“现代科学”中去。我们认为,在古老的公理原则和类别上建立某种平行的科学系统是不可行的。
IV
ON EDUCATION
关于教育
1.The most continuous and sustained interventions of Parishad have been in the field of education both within and outside. Why do you think education is an important entry point in society?
1,Parishad最具连续性和可持续性的发明在教育领域,无论内外。您为什么认为教育是进入社会的重要切入点?
Education is the most massive social activity. It involves almost every citizen – as parents, as students, as teachers or as society. It has the highest potential, both for evil and for good. Its impact is visible/ felt only after a long time. Mistakes can be quite costly. Finally, teachers predominate both leadership and rank and file of the KSSP.
教育是最为重大的社会活动。它和几乎每个人都有关系—— 不管是家长、学生、教师,还是社会人士。它有着最高的潜力,可能是善良的潜力,也可能是邪恶的。它的影响,只有长时间以后才能显露。在它身上所犯的错误,代价是巨大的。最终呢,主导着KSSP的领导层、等级和人员结构的也是教师。
2.The Parishad literature talks about a crisis in the field of education- Is it a crisis of development or science or culture?
2,Parishad的文献(Parishad literature )谈到了教育领域的危机——这是发展的危机,还是科学的,或者是文化的危机?
The crisis in education emanates, basically from the crisis in culture which is blind to the crisis in development. Both capitalism and socialism extols the virtue of “abundance”. Communist society is based on an unprecedented abundance of goods and services. It thought that this state of abundance can be achieved through state ownership of means of production and cooperative process of production. It failed. Capitalism argued for private ownership of means of production and unrestricted competition. Presently it is victorious. Capitalism has no faith in society. It relies on individuals and their ability to compete in the market. It does not yet, recognise any limitation to growth- no resource constraints no ecological constraint. But such constraints are true. This led to a development crisis. Education for a type of development which is in crisis, is bound to face the same crisis.
教育领域的危机主要来自于文化危机,与发展的危机关联不大。资本主义和社会主义赞颂的是“丰富”的美德,社会主义是基于前所未有的丰富产品和服务的。它认为,这种丰富状态可以通过国家拥有生产资料,以及合作生产的过程来实现。但它失败了。资本主义认为私人应该拥有生产资料,并且放任竞争。目前它是胜利的一方。资本主义对社会没有信心,它依赖的是个人,是个人在市场中的竞争力。它尚未意识到增长有任何局限——没有资源的限制,亦没有生态的限制。但是,这些限制是的确存在的。这一点从而引发了发展的危机。在这种危机中的发展过程中,教育当然也要面对同样的危机。
3.Why is there such a premium on education in Kerala?
3,为什么喀拉拉邦会这么重视教育?
People believe in individual salvation or escape and believe that education is the vehicle for escape.
人们相信个人的救赎或者逃离,相信教育是逃离的工具。
4.How has the nature of education been institutionalised? What is the nature of contestation in this sector?
4,教育的本质是如何制度化的?在这个领域争论的本质是什么?
Education was becoming increasingly commercialised on the one hand and communalised on the other hand. The communalization became useful to strengthen commercialization on the one hand and fragmentation of politics on the other hand. A Supreme Court judgement and its unwarranted stretching by successive state governments made “teacher appointment” a lucrative business at the expense of public exchequer. Concomitant to this was the continuous alienation of teaching-learning process from teachers. Thus the main areas of contestation became:(i)private education at public expense.
  • abuse of minority rights
  • Deterioration of teaching-learning standards
  • Emergent anti-social value system.
一方面,教育变得越来越商业化;另一方面也越来越集中化。这种集中化一方面有利于加强商业化,另一方面,又加速政治的分裂。最高法院的判令,通过多届的州政府的非法执行,让“教师任命”变成了有利可图的一门生意,代价却是公共财政。相伴发生的,则是教师们越来越远离“教学相长”的过程。于是,主要的争论变成了: •私人教育利用公共支出;
•践踏少数派人士权利;
•教-学标准的降低;
•反社会价值体系的出现。
5.Who are the various players in the field of education?
5,教育领域有哪些人在参与?
The various players in the field of education are: • Teachers through their organizations- to strengthen rights and to weaken obligations. • Managers desirous of making money at every possibility • Students who want to study. • Students who are politically ambitious and not interested in studies. •Non-teaching staff •Departmental officials. None of them, except students who want to study and a minority of teachers who want to teach, is interested in education. This led to a continuous deterioration in the quality of education.
教育领域的不同人群有: • 教师,通过其组织来争取权利、减少义务; • 经理人,无孔不入地追逐利益; • 想要学习的学生; • 富有政治野心而无心学习的学生; • 非教学人员; • 部门官员。 这里面,除了想要学习的学生和少数志在教书育人的老师以外,没人对教育感兴趣。这导致了教育质量的持续下降。
6.Science Clubs- A programme suggested by the Kothari Committee- what did the Parishad do through it?
6,科学俱乐部——这是科塔里委员会(Kothari Committee)提出的一个项 目—— Parishad 想通过这个项目达到什么目的?
Through Science Clubs KSSP was able to create a constituency – small it may be- for science learning. It also helped to create a market for children’s science books and also to recruit more and more teachers interested in science teaching to the Parishad.
通过科学俱乐部,KSSP能够建立一个选区(群体)——尽管可能很小——共同学习科学。它还能够帮助创造出一个儿童科学读物市场,让更多对科学感兴趣的教师们参与Parishad的教学工作中。
7.Vigyanotsav- What did it want to achieve? Can a one day programme substitute a continuous process?
7,Vigyanotsav——它要实现的是什么?一个时长仅一天的项目,能否构成持续的发酵?
Vigyanotsav: The objective was to demonstrate that science, in fact any learning, can be fun. It also gave us the wherewithal, the bricks for building, later, the edifice of activity based and integrated teaching. It was not conceived as a substitute for class room teaching- but over years it gave all the necessary material for the new curriculum initiated in 1997.
Vigyanotsav:它的目标是为了说明,科学——以及任何任何方面的学习——可以是充满乐趣的。它还带给我们建成一栋建筑必要的资金、砖石;后来这些资金和砖石变成了一栋大厦,一栋植根于教育、整合了教育的行动的大厦。它的初衷并不是要成为课堂教学的替代品——但多年来,它为1997年启动的新课程提供了所有必须的教学材料。
8.Sastra Sahavas Camps ——What did it want to achieve? Why are some of these programmes not seen today?
8,Sastra Sahavas营——它要实现的又是什么?这些项目中,为什么有的今天已经看不到?
Sastra Sahavas camps too served the same purpose. It had also, one additional objective- to counteract the individualistic values promoted by the society and in the schools and to develop communitarian values. It is living not only with science, but also with others. They have become less popular today because of the increasingly despondent mood of the society. And, all the more necessary.
Sastra Sahavas也有着相同的目的。它同样也有一个额外的目的——与社会和学校当中出现的个人主义价值观进行斗争,力图发展社群主义价值观。它不仅与科学共存,还与其他的东西共存。今天,因为社会越来越严重的沮丧情绪,它们已经不再那么风行,但是却比任何时候更加重要。
9.Has the Parishad tried to rewrite textbooks? Along what lines? Has the state government adopted them? Why not?
9,Parishad 有没有尝试重写教材?依照什么原则来重写?邦政府有没有采用它们?为什么?
Yes. KSSP has attempted to rewrite text books, but in a very small way. They, however, could not be accepted by the State government, because education is to sensitive and too huge a subject. However most of these ideas get reflected in the new text books written for the new curriculum.
有的。KSSP尝试过重写教材,但只是小范围。它们得不到政府的承认,因为教育是个太敏感、太宏大的主题。不过,大多数的理念都已经在新课标的教材中得到体现。
10.Was there a programme called “Operation Classroom”? In what ways did the Parishad participate?
10,有没有一个叫做“行动课堂(Operation Classroom)”的项目?Parishad是以什么方式参与这个项目的?
“Operation Classroom” was a project initiated by the KSSP. Nobody else was involved in it. The objective was to prepare all textbooks and teacher’s handbooks for classes 1 to 7. More than 1000 pages of printed material were prepared over a period of 2-3 years. This was, still, only less than 30% of the requirement. Those who were involved in this were involved, also, with the SCERT in the preparation of new text books in 1996- 97.
“行动课堂”是由KSSP发起的一个项目,没有别的人参与。它的目标是,为1-7年级的学生编写(准备)所有的教材和教学手册。在那个项目2-3年的时间里,一共印了超过1000页的影印材料。不过,这还不到缺口的30%。那些参与到这个项目的人,也在1996-97年参与了准备新教材的SCERT项目。
11.Why was the Vidyabhyasa Rekha of 1982 drawn up? (response to any policy programme or any particular practices in Kerala?)
11,为什么会出现1982年的Vidyabhyasa Rekha?(是作为对什么政策的回应,或是喀拉拉邦的特定做法?)
The Vidyabhyasa Rekha of 1982 was drawn up not in response to any immediate action or policy of the government, but to satisfy a long-standing felt need of a properly drawn and curriculum for the state.
1982年的Vidyabhyasa Rekha,并不是出于对政策或政府行动的直接回应,而是为了满足长期以来的、为全邦准备一套新课程标准的需求。
12.In VidyabhyasaRekha I there is an alternative organization of school education? Why did it not succeed? Why do people not accept?
12,Vidyabhyasa Rekha中,有一个替代学校教育的组织?为什么它没能成功?为什么人们不接受它?
The alternative organization of education was drawn up only to indicate a possibility to initiate discussion. There was no illusion as to the government accepting it. Even a much less radical one introduced in 1997 met with violent, though uncalled for, opposition.
学校教育的替代机构的出现,只是为了表明有引发讨论的可能,没人会有这种错觉说它会得到政府的承认。即便是1997年那个更温和的(替代组织),也遭遇了暴力镇压(虽然这是毫无理由的)。
13.Why is there so much of emphasis on technical education? (Pravritti Unmukha Vidyabhyasam?) Is it different from Engineering and Medicine, which were coveted by the parents in Kerala?
13,为什么会这么重视技术教育?(Pravritti Unmukha Vidyabhyasam?)它和喀拉拉邦的家长们所热衷的工科、医学是不是不同?
Pravritti Unmukha Vidyabhyasam is not technical education. It is a mixture of Gandhiji’s concept of Basic Education and the pedagogic concept of “learning through doing”. It is totally different from Engineering or technical education. The education so far has been limited to its cognitive aspects (degrading- into rot learning) neglecting psycho-motor and affective domains. This was an attempt to rectify this deficiency.
Pravritti Unmukha Vidyabhyasam并不是技术教育。它是甘地的基础教育理念和“从实践中学”这一教育学概念的混合体。它与工科或者技术教育完全不同。到目前为止,教育已被局限在认知层面(退化到了简单的学习),忽视了心理上的动因和情感领域。它的出现,是试图纠正这种缺陷的一个尝试。
14.What was the necessity of the Vidyabhyas Rekha of 1991? How was it formulated?
14,1991年的Vidyabhyas Rekha有什么必要性吗?它是如何形成的?
Vidyabhyasa Rekha 1991 was prepared more to discuss the politics of education and impact of globalization on it. It did not discuss in depth the curriculum or organizational aspects of education.
1991年的Vidyabhyas Rekha,主要的意图在于讨论教育的政治性和全球化对它的影响。它并不深入讨论课程或教育的组织问题。
15.The Kothari Commission had also proposed the Panchayat School Programme. What is new in it? When and how was it conceived? What are the problems with it? What has been the response to the Panchayat School Complex programme?
15,Kothari(科塔里)委员会也提出了潘查雅特(Panchayat,意为乡村、乡村自治委员会)学校计划。这项计划有什么新进展吗?它是什么时候产生的,如何产生的?它存在哪些问题?潘查雅特学校综合体计划(Panchayat School Complex programme)得到了什么样的反响?
Most of the recommendations of the Kothari Commission remained in the pages of the report. There was nobody to even try them out. KSSP tried out the Panchayat School Complex ideas- a derivative of High School Complex. Being the most massive and highly inertial system, changes in education are hard to effect. We did not succeed much.
科塔里委员会的大多数提案,目前仍然在报告纸面上,甚至没人愿意去落到实处。KSSP实践了潘查雅特学校综合体理念—— 这是高校综合体的一个衍生。作为最为大型而且高度自主的体系,教育的改变十分不易。我们取得的成效也很少。
16.And yet the programmes do not seem to push further in questioning the social structure? How is the project of social revolution possible without it?
16,但是这些项目似乎并没有能够把社会当中的问题部分向前推进,取得进步?如果没有进步,这些社会变革项目怎么才能成为可能?
Verbal questioning can satisfy one’s conscience. Social/ structural change is both gradual- attitudinal and cultural- and accelerated (political). Education acts on the cultural sphere- that of slow and accumulated change. The argument for mother tongue as medium of instruction, for a curriculum relevant to the impoverished majority and for an activity based and life related pedagogy – all have elements of questioning the existing social structure. That is why it was violently opposed when attempted to be introduced.
口头上的质问,可以满足一个人的良心;但社会/结构上的改变既是缓慢的态度和文化过程,也是一个加速的(政治)过程。文化领域中的教育行动——正缓慢地累积着改变。母语作为教学媒介,为身处贫困的绝大多数人设计课程,设计以活动为基础、与人们生活休戚相关的教学法,这些理念都带有质问我们现存社会体系结构的意味。这也是为什么,这些理念在被实践之时,受到暴力抵制的原因。
17.Why is there so much of emphasis given to the child? (Balotsavam,Bala Sastram, Eureka, Vigyanotsavam, Bal Vedi etc.) What is the Parishad’s notion of the child?
17,为什么会这么重视儿童?(Balotsavam,Bala Sastram, Eureka, Vigyanotsavam, Bal Vedi,等等)Parishad在儿童问题上的理念是怎样的?
Children whose childhood is snatched away from them grow up into selfish and psychologically deranged adults. That is a dangerous future. This is one reason. Most of the parents live for children. So children are the concern of the society too. There is no social revolution without children in it. Further children are the banner bearers of everything that is good.
儿童的纯真童年被剥夺了,他们在长大的过程中变得自私,变成了心理上错乱的成年人。这种未来是很危险的。这是其一。其二,大多数家长都为了孩子而活着,所以儿童也是全社会所关注的问题。不涉及到儿童问题,就不可能完成社会变革。未来,孩子们将是举旗者,是任何美好事物的支持者。
18.How can social needs and individual aspirations be accommodated or reconciled?
18,社会需求和个人愿望怎么样才能互相容纳,互相和解?
It is not easy to reconcile social needs and individual aspirations. One important element in this will be the cultural development to distinguish between aspiration (often amounting to greed) and needs. Individual and social needs can be reconciled.
社会需求与个人愿望是很难调和的。这里很重要的一点是文化。要通过文化的发展,将愿望(通常导致贪婪)和需求区分开。而个人于社会的需求是可以调和的。
19.There have been private investments in education since the colonial period? What is the difference in the nature of the private investments now? Why does the parishad oppose private investments in the context when it has become difficult for the Government to meet the costs?
19,从殖民时期开始,就已经有私人在教育领域投资了?那时候的私人投资和现在的私人投资有什么不同特点?为什么在政府难以承受这些(教育)成本的情况下,parishad仍然反对这样的私人投资?
Private investments on education during the colonial period has been, basically, philanthropic ones and not commercial ones. Today it is purely commercial. The argument that Government has no resources is not correct. More efficient utilization of resources already set apart for education will take us a long way forward. In school education 90 per cent of the problems can be solved if the society, the teachers and the government decide to do so (at least in Kerala). As far as higher education is concerned the present policy of infinite expansion is simply crazy. Even most affluent nations will not do it. Education should be compatible with the future economy- short term and long term. It shall not become lottery business.
殖民时期在教育领域的私人投资,基本上是慈善性的,而不是商业性的。可今天,却纯粹是商业性的。有人说政府没有资源,这是错误的。更高效地利用现有资源,足以让我们的教育获得长足进步。只要全社会、教师和政府决心去做,那么学校教育90%的问题可以解决(至少在喀拉拉邦可以)。至于高等教育,当前的这种无限扩张的政策简直是疯狂。即使是那些赋予的国家,也不会这样做。教育应该与未来的经济—— 包括短期和长期的经济——相适应,而不是沦为一种博彩式行为。
20.What are the problems in the institutionalization of Parishad’s interventions?
20,干预的制度化过程中,存在哪些问题?
Institutionalization of Parishad’s intervention demand, major attitudinal –cultural and political changes. Conversely struggles to transform education become, also, struggles for social change.
Parishad干预的制度化,最需要的是态度上、文化上和政治上的变革。抵制教育领域的改革,最终将变成对社会变革的阻碍。
V
ON GRAMA SASTRA SAMITIS
关于 GRAMA SASTRA SAMITIS(GSS)
1.Why were the GSS unsuccessful in being institutionalised despite the scope that they possessed?
1,GSS 的影响范围那么广,为什么它在制度化方面仍然不成功?
The concept was too much ahead of its time. The tasks it set for itself were too big. KSSP failed to impart optimism to the citizens. It also failed to attract the technical –scientific expertise available in the panchayat- the doctors, engineers, lawyers etc.
它的理念太超前了,它要完成的任务太艰巨。KSSP没有能够让国民对此保持乐观。同时,它也没能够吸引潘查雅特中的那些技术、科学界专家们——那些医生、工程师、律师,等等。
2.Why did you try to make them separate from the Parishad?
2,为什么您想让它独立于Parishad?
The idea of making them independent was to help them become locally rooted, more responsive to local situations.
让他们保持独立的想法,是为了帮助他们扎根于当地,对地方条件的反应更加灵敏。
VI
ON THE PANCHAYAT LEVEL RESOURCEMAPPING:CONCEPT OF AN IDEA
关于潘查雅特层面的资源图谱(PRM):从想法到构思
1.What were the conditions which gave rise to such an idea?
1,这个想法是在什么样的情形下产生的?
The concept of PRM arose from the following: • Inspiration from the “Resource Atlas of Kerala” brought out by the Centre for Earth Science Studies. • The increasing faith in loal area planning and the absence of disaggregated local level data. • The proven possibility of popular participation- from the experience of TLC.
PRM的概念来自以下几方面: • 受到了地球科学研究中心提出的 “喀拉拉邦资源地图 ”的启发; • 对地方计划日益增强的信心,以及地方级别数据的缺乏; • 通过TLC的经验,广泛参与被证明是可能的。
2.Who were involved in the conception and discussion?
2,哪些人参与到了构思和讨论中?
Besides me the people who were initially involved are: Prof M.K. Prasad and Sri Subrata Sinha.
除了我以外,参与进来的还有M.K.Prasad教授、Subrata Sinha先生。
3.Have such experiments been carried out in any other parts of the country before?
3,在此之前,这样的实验有没有在贵国别的地区进行过,怎样进行的?
To the best of my knowledge such type of an experiment was being contemplated for the first time.
据我所知,这样的实验还是第一次被构思出来。
4.Did Prof. Gulati and T.K. Arun carry out a similar exercise earlier in the State?
4,Gulati教授和T.K. Arun教授有没有在本邦进行过类似的活动?
No. Absolutely No.
没有。绝对没有。
5.Why was it conceived as a scientific exercise? What was the vision inherent in it?
5,为什么认为这是一种科学行动?它所抱持的愿景是什么?
It was a revised attempt to resurrect the central concept of the Grama Sastra Samithi. Panchayat level development planning concept promoted in 1987 did not take root. The vision was the formation of a resource group in each panchayat knowledgeable, competent and committed.
这是试图将Grama Sastra Samithi的中心思想重新复活。1987 年推出的潘查雅特级别的发展计划概念,并没有生根发芽。它的愿景是,在各个潘查雅特形成有知识、有竞争力和专注力的资源群组。
6.Who were the partners in such an exercise (institutions and groups ) and what was the role thought of each of them in such an exercise?
6,在这样一个行动中,有哪些伙伴(机构和群体)?这些伙伴们各自是什么角色?
The CESS, the IRTC and the Gram Panchayats were the partners. The IRTC/ KSSP provided the idea, took the responsibility of linking up with the panchayats and also development of non-institutional expertise. The CESS provided the scientific support and the formal responsibility. Panchayats were responsible for all cooperation in the field level.
伙伴有CESS、IRTC和Gram Panchayats。IRTC/ KSSP提供想法,负责链接潘查雅特,以及非机构专家。CESS提供科学支持,以及正式的负责。潘查雅特则负责各领域层面的合作。
7.Where was it tried out first? Who were the people?
7,首先从什么地方开始尝试的?是哪些人进行的?
It was carried first in Kalliasseri panchayat- T. Gangadharan was in-charge of it.
首先在Kalliasseri的潘查雅特(乡村)——由T. Gangadharan负责。
8.How did the parishad come in? What was the role envisagted for the Parishad members in such an exercise? How is it different from the Party cadre?
8,parishad是如何介入的?parishad成员在这个行动中扮演了什么样的角色?这种角色与政党干部的角色有什么不同?
Parishad conceived the whole idea and all the time played the leadership role. Some of the Party cadre and KSSP cadre were identical. But this was not done as a “Party task”.
Parishad构思了整个的想法,而且始终是领导角色。有的政党干部和KSSP的干部很相似,但这个行动并不是作为“政党任务” 来完成的。
9.How did the Parishad members react to the proposal? What were the various reactions, misgivings expressed? Was there any resistance? (Democratic Centralism?)
9,Parishad 成员对这项提议的反应如何?有哪些不同的反应和疑虑?有没有人抵制?(民主集中制 ?)
The question does not arise. It was KSSP crusading the idea. Opposition came much later- during the PLDP- PPC phase.
没有出现这个问题。一直以来,是KSSP在推行这个想法的。反对的声音后来才出现,在PLDP-PPC阶段才出现。
10.How were the areas (panchayat) of intervention selected? What was the method? Why Kalliassery so specifically? (Among all the 15 panchayats). Factors responsible for the Kalliassery option.
10,介入的各个地区(潘查雅特)是怎么选出来的?用什么方式?为什么 Kalliassery 会这么特殊?(在所有15个潘查雅特当中)选择 Kalliassery有哪些因素?
• Availability of leading and capable KSSP activist- T.Gangadharan, then General Secretary of KSSP and also a member of Gram Panchayat. • Expected cooperation from the elected representatives and of the people.
• 有具备领导能力和个人能力的KSSP活动家—— T.Gangadharan,时任KSSP 秘书长,也是Gram潘查雅特的成员。 • 预计能得到被选出的代表及其人民的合作。
11.The Kalliassery experiment marks a consolidation of the Parishad’s interventions at the local level. Why did it feel the need to localize its efforts at the community level in the early 90s? Does it have anything to do with globalization?
11,Kalliassery 的实验,巩固了Parishad在地方级别的干预。为什么在90年代就感觉到了有将努力付诸在社区层面的必要?这与全球化有没有关系?
The concept of local level planning arose, not in opposition to globalization. It was much erlier. It has found that centralised planning neither at national level nor at state level has been delivering results. From late seventies the idea of local level planning has been gathering strength.
地方层面规划这一概念,并不是在抵触全球化之中诞生的,它实际上要早很多。因为很早就发现,中央统一规划也好,邦级规划也好,都没有什么效果。因此从70年代末期开始,地方层面规划的理念就已经开始聚力了。
12.What has been the role of the Parishad after the Left took over the People’s Planning Project as its agenda?
12,左翼接管“人民规划项目”之后,Parishad 扮演了什么样的角色?
KSSP could provide much of the resource persons required for PPC and also development ideas at local level to the panchayats.
KSSP提供PPC所需的大量资源人士,以及潘查雅特所需的地方层面发展思路。
13.From Panchayat Level Resource Mapping to People’s Plan Campaign for the 9th Plan .... the shift in terminology does it indicate anything?
13,从“潘查雅特层面资源图谱(PRM)”到“第九规划——人民规划运动(PPC)(People’s Plan Campaign for the 9th Plan )”……名称的改变是否表明着什么?
PRM was conceived even at the beginning, only as a tool for local level planning. Even without PPC it would have graduated to holistic development planning. the PLDP was conceived and initiated for this purpose. PP did the mainstreaming.
PRM在刚构思出来时只是作为地方层面规划的一种工具。即便没有 PPC,它也将发展成为全面开发规划。PLDP就是为了这个目标而构思并发起的。PP始终是主流思想。
14.What was the difference in the exercise? (Major impact of such a shift? Problems? Criticisms?)
14,这在执行上有什么不同?(这一变化所带来的影响?问题?批评?)
There was no theoretical difference. But in the hands of wrong or incompetent people even a good instrument can become counter productive.
并没有什么理论上的不同。但是,在错误的人手中,或者在没有能力的人手中,即便是一个很好的工具,也只会适得其反。
15.What is the meaning of Prasthanam? What is the difference between a campaign and a movement? Why this attempt to transform any experiment into a movement? Does it indicate a character of the Left Movement in Kerala as such?
15,Prasthanam 有什么含义? 活动(campaign)和运动 (movement)之间有何区别?为什么要试图把任何实验转型成为运动?这是否意味着如同喀拉拉邦左翼运动一样的特点?
“Prasthanam” is used as equivalent to a movement. Campaign envisage comparatively shorter term action for limited objectives, where as movements have larger perspectives and longer durations. Every experiment cannot be transformed into a movement. It is not necessary also. Only when one plans large scale replication one thinks of movements. Further, when one expects resistance one thinks of campaigns.
“ Prasthanam”的意义等同于运动。“活动(campaign)”所指的通常是相对较短时间的行动,目的也有限。而运动 “movement”有着更长远的视野,持续更长的时间。实验是无法改造成为运动的,也没有这个必要。当一个人计划去大规模复制时,他想的是运动;当一个人想着会遇到阻碍,那他想的就是活动。
16.Why are the attempts of Parishad not institutionalized and acquire a sustainability of its own? Why does it need the help and support from the State to continue? (And in turn gets jeopardized when the Government change?)
16,为什么Parishad的努力没有能够制度化,并实现自身的可持续发展?为什么它会需要邦政府的帮助和支持?(结果却在政府更迭时受到了阻碍?)
Institutionalization can be done either by the government- from panchayat to the state- or by the NGOs. Establishing institutions for development on NGO mode is not the agenda of the KSSP. It strives to transform the state. As far as PRM is concerned the government has accepted it as its own programme in 1990 itself. More than one third of the panchayats have been covered. It requires 0.5 to 1.0 lakhs of rupees per panchayat and so KSSP cannot do it by itself. There is no necessity too. The changes of government has affected only the formal involvement of the KSSP. At the panchayat level KSSP is involved to greater or lesser extent. Of course the pace and tenor of implementation, when done by the government will differ from the KSSP mode. The PRM and other data gathering and management programme will become regular activity of the panchayat only when its developmental possibilities are fully developed, which it is still not.
制度化要么通过政府,从潘查雅特到邦政府来完成,要么通过NGO来完成。但是,以NGO的模式来实现制度化发展,并不在KSSP的日程中。它是立志要转变全邦的。而至于PRM,政府已经在1990年接受,将它作为一个政府项目了。当时项目就覆盖了超过三分之一的潘查雅特。因为每个潘查雅特需要5-10万卢比的资金,而KSSP自己无力承担。而且也没有自己独立承担的必要。政府的改革,只对与KSSP的正式合作(formal involvement)产生了影响。而在潘查雅特层面,KSSP的参与层面要么更广,要么更小。当然,它在由政府执行的时候,步伐和期限是会与KSSP模式有所不同的。发展的可能性被充分发掘的情况下,PRM和其他的数据收集和管理项目将只在潘查雅特层面成为常规的活动,而目前还不是时候。
17.Why is the Parishad committed to the State when there is a certainty that the content and intent of the programme will get jeopardized when it is taken up by the State?
17,明知当邦政府执行时,项目的内容和意图都会受到阻挠,为什么Parishad仍然要致力于邦(政府)?
Parishad is not committed to the State. It is committed to the people only. And that too, to the majority- the impoverished ones. It also does not feel it necessary to oppose the State at all times. It believes in utilizing every opportunity, occupying every space, and getting out when it is threatened to be squeezed or co-opted. Engagement with the state- involves at times carrying forward the states agenda in directions and extent, not very much intended by it.
Parishad 并不致力于邦,它只致力于人民。更致力于大多数——贫穷的大多数人。与此同时,它也并不需要总是站在邦的对立面,它坚信应该善加利用每一次机遇,占领每一个阵地,而且当受到挤压和钳制的时候应该抽身而退。介入邦级事务,从方向和范围上参与推进邦级的日程,这并不是它的意图。
18.What is the role of culture in Kerala, which has allowed such a PSM to exist and continue? Does culture shape/ modify science in any way? Can the cultural resources offer a possibility of being channelised for social transformation?
18,喀拉拉邦的文化是什么样的角色,它为什么能够允许PSM的存续?文化是否在某种程度上塑造 / 改良科学?文化资源是否能够提供一种疏通社会转型的可能性?
It became possible for PSM to originate and thrive in Kerala due to the long culture of social and political movements. The relationship between culture and science is not direct and cannot be defined easily. Social transformation, not only for its sustenance but also for its very occurrence, demand major cultural changes, some form of a cultural revolution. Here culture has to be understood in a broad sense, not limited to art. Science, philosophy, world view, development concepts, ecology, gender .... all these fall under this broad category of culture.
PSM之所以能够在喀拉拉邦产生和繁荣,就是由于这里长期的社会运动和政治运动文化。文化和科学之间的关系是间接的,不容易定义的。不仅在其土壤上,也在其发生成长的过程当中,社会转型会需要大量的文化变革,需要某种形式的文化革命。在这里,文化必须要从广义上理解,不仅仅是艺术。科学、哲学、世界观、发展观、生态、性别……所有这些,都从属于文化这个大的范畴。
-31.07.2002-